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The Menagerie part 1 & 2

dommoz

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 185

Report this Jul. 23 2009, 8:44 am

This is episodes 16 and 17 for me.

Ok, this one made me think.

I liked this, but I wonder if some off you think Spock was acting out of Character, I do not. And here is why.

I spend a great deal of time over on the Heroes boards, and I get in this argument all the time. And to be honest I think it's a very bad argument, bordering on arrogance. I really don't like when people accuse a character of acting out of character.

First, everyone acts differently, in every situation based upon their personal views and their life experiences. A TV character is a character. Everything they do is in their character. It is just by definition.

The other thing is if every character acted as we thought that they should, there would be no reason to have a show. If we all understood exactly how every character would react to every situation, then there is no reason to have a TV show. (and on a side note I bet you could not get two hardcore fans to agree to the same reaction every time, they would interpret differently) No surprises, no suspense. And as I say on the Heroes boards, You may expect this to be more than a TV show, but the fact is, it is still a TV show.

Finally, I always say to people that say that, not to flatter yourself, to think you know exactly how a character, that someone else created, and is writing for. Its their character they made him off course they know it better than you ever could.

Sorry not yelling at anyone about that, just my soap box response to that type of thought. Not that anyone said it, just that I can see that kind of argument breaking out about this episode. You guys might think differently, and you might have a point, just the way I think about weather a character is acting out of character. I certainly am to new to say that regardless, just disappointed in myself for having that thought first.

So that being said I don't think Spock was acting out of character, but rather his character was more being revealed. It shows that his loyalty and the comfort, both physical, and mental of his superiors, the friends he respects, comes first.

He was willing to sacrifice his own life, just so that his prior command officer could live the rest of his life in relative comfort. Showed to me that Spock is compassionate at is core, and very powerfully so.

Now don't get me wrong, I understand what this episode was. It was the production crew, realizing that they have all this extra footage from the pilot that was not initially going to be on TV and by using it, they can chop more than half the production for two episodes if they use that film in the actual show run.

Now that said, I still liked it. I almost wish I had not watched the pilot, cause the only suspense in the episode was how to get Spock out of the court marshal. I knew why he was taking Spock to the Talus IV(sp). And that would have been the only real suspense since I knew that of course Spock would get out of it.

Anyway, I thought that at first Pike was telling Spock to not take him, but at the end when he said he does want to go their, I realize that he was telling Spock not to risk himself.

I love Spock's overall responses during his trial when he does speak. Its very entertaining.

Now all that said from the responses I have seen Kirk make with other officers, I would have thought he would still have discipline against Spock. But as I stated earlier I do not believe in accusing a TV character, of acting out of character. So to me this episode showed how much Kirk cared for Spock to, and I am betting he realized that Spock would have gave his life for Kirk if the situation presented itself, just for him to live comfortably.

This episode showed to me the bond that the Captain and Spock have runs very deep.

Cool work in of the pilot, I liked it. It hasn't been my favorite but I have not been disappointed with any episode yet.

I am interested to hear what hard core fans think of this episode. ?I can see a wide range of thoughts about this happening.

thereR4lights

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POSTS: 2643

Report this Jul. 23 2009, 8:52 am

spock simply made a sacrafice to better pikes life...

yet another human moment for our logical freind... he was not out of character, but he was acting illogicaly

it all worked out in the end

dommoz

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 185

Report this Jul. 23 2009, 8:54 am

Quote (thereR4lights @ July 23 2009, 8:52 am)
spock simply made a sacrafice to better pikes life...

yet another human moment for our logical freind... he was not out of character, but he was acting illogicaly

it all worked out in the end

Right I never accuse a character of acting out of character.  

It makes me respect Spock so much more, that he cared nothing for himself, and was willing to sacrafice his life just so Pike could live out his life in comfort.

I love that, very emotional when you think of it that way.  I am sure Kirk realized that Spock would have done the same for him too.  

I love this episode just for that feeling.

MrsStarbuck

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POSTS: 4329

Report this Jul. 23 2009, 9:07 am

Hi Dommoz, I'm a big fan of Heroes too ;)

In response to your general comment about fictional people 'acting out of character' I think there are some times when you can say it. Granted it's always the writers prerogative to be able to change a character as they see fit, but especially if you're talking about a long running series, where the viewer gets to know the characters, I think it's fair that they come to expect certain things from them. For example, you wouldn't expect Kirk to suddenly become a selfish and apathetic Captain who didn't give a stuff about his ship or his crew (not without extreme provocation anyway).

I guess I won't ask your opinion on Sylar wanting to be good! ha ha.


Onto the Menagerie, I personally NEVER thought that Spock was acting 'out of character'. I was confident that he must have a very good reason for doing what he was doing, although it kept me completely gripped trying to work out what that reason was! And I hadn't seen the pilot beforehand...I'm glad I hadn't because I loved this episode.
I think Kirk also must have been confident that Spock had a very good explanation for his actions, which is why he didn't come down harder on him.

I found the character of Captain Pike a very tragic figure, and I felt deeply for what he must have been going through. Imagine being a Starship Captain one day, and then a complete paraplegic the next. I know I have a habit of relating TOS episodes to films, but it made me think of a wonderful film called "Whose Life is it Anyway" where Richard Dreyfuss plays a paraplegic that takes a hospital to court for the right to die. The way he described what it was like to be a prisoner inside your own body in that film, is the way I saw Pike.

It was a wonderfully human gesture for Spock to firstly understand what it was that Pike needed, and secondly to risk everything to make it happen (note to self - add The Menagerie to the 'Spock's Human Moments' thread...he he).

I think this episode benefits from being a two-parter because it gives enough time for the storyline to be explored fully. It's one of my fave episodes.

thereR4lights

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POSTS: 2643

Report this Jul. 23 2009, 9:15 am

it was a good two parter because the studio only had to pay for 20 min of acting for two weeks

dommoz

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 185

Report this Jul. 23 2009, 9:16 am

Quote (MrsStarbuck @ July 23 2009, 9:07 am)
Hi Dommoz, I'm a big fan of Heroes too ;)

In response to your general comment about fictional people 'acting out of character' I think there are some times when you can say it. Granted it's always the writers prerogative to be able to change a character as they see fit, but especially if you're talking about a long running series, where the viewer gets to know the characters, I think it's fair that they come to expect certain things from them. For example, you wouldn't expect Kirk to suddenly become a selfish and apathetic Captain who didn't give a stuff about his ship or his crew (not without extreme provocation anyway).

I guess I won't ask your opinion on Sylar wanting to be good! ha ha.


Onto the Menagerie, I personally NEVER thought that Spock was acting 'out of character'. I was confident that he must have a very good reason for doing what he was doing, although it kept me completely gripped trying to work out what that reason was! And I hadn't seen the pilot beforehand...I'm glad I hadn't because I loved this episode.
I think Kirk also must have been confident that Spock had a very good explanation for his actions, which is why he didn't come down harder on him.

I found the character of Captain Pike a very tragic figure, and I felt deeply for what he must have been going through. Imagine being a Starship Captain one day, and then a complete paraplegic the next. I know I have a habit of relating TOS episodes to films, but it made me think of a wonderful film called "Whose Life is it Anyway" where Richard Dreyfuss plays a paraplegic that takes a hospital to court for the right to die. The way he described what it was like to be a prisoner inside your own body in that film, is the way I saw Pike.

It was a wonderfully human gesture for Spock to firstly understand what it was that Pike needed, and secondly to risk everything to make it happen (note to self - add The Menagerie to the 'Spock's Human Moments' thread...he he).

I think this episode benefits from being a two-parter because it gives enough time for the storyline to be explored fully. It's one of my fave episodes.

I always say, you can not like what a character does, but I never say its acting out of character.  

Sylar, I dont like some of the stuff he does, but none of it to me is acting out of character, they are showing us how confused and needy he is. (is only weekness left)

I find myslef being moved more and more, the more I type about this episode.  

The sacrafice Spock would make. Is truly beautiful.

dommoz

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 185

Report this Jul. 23 2009, 9:17 am

Quote (thereR4lights @ July 23 2009, 9:15 am)
it was a good two parter because the studio only had to pay for 20 min of acting for two weeks

Right, I mentioned, that I am sure thats why they did it.  But all in all, they still were able to tie this in wonderfully.

MrsStarbuck

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 4329

Report this Jul. 23 2009, 9:18 am

Quote (thereR4lights @ July 22 2009, 3:15 pm)
it was a good two parter because the studio only had to pay for 20 min of acting for two weeks

Well, there's that too  :laugh:

thereR4lights

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 2643

Report this Jul. 23 2009, 9:23 am

man...

what it must be like.. to see this all for the first time...
f#@#kin hell im jelous

enjoy the trek... there is no going back now, you are one of us

Mirrorgirl

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POSTS: 15692

Report this Jul. 23 2009, 9:24 am

Quote (thereR4lights @ July 23 2009, 10:52 pm)
spock simply made a sacrafice to better pikes life...

yet another human moment for our logical freind... he was not out of character, but he was acting illogicaly

it all worked out in the end

You are right 4Lights that Spock is showing another example of the very human side of his nature, and especially in terms of his decision to undetake the deed in the first place, he was not thinking 'logically', but in the execution of the mutiny/hijack of the Enterprise, his plan was worked out completely logically...down to the smallest detail; he thought of EVERYTHING.

He knew he was undertaking a very risky plan and he did everything exactly right at exactly moment to make his plan come together...up to and including setting it up so that if he was caught and Court Martialled, that Kirk's neck would not be in the noose with him.

This is a very powerful and engaging episode, and I much prefer to watch 'The Cage' as part of 'The Menagerie' than as a stand alone. The 'envelope' of Spock's taking of the Enterprise and his desire to help his former Commander, makes the character of Christopher Pike come to life for me (just watching'The Cage' I find Pike to be a very boring and frankly annoying character).

thereR4lights

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 2643

Report this Jul. 23 2009, 9:28 am

prime pike annoying?!?............ yes he was
but still

rip prime pike... you get to WALK

Mirrorgirl

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POSTS: 15692

Report this Jul. 23 2009, 9:55 am

Quote (thereR4lights @ July 23 2009, 11:28 pm)
prime pike annoying?!?............ yes he was
but still

rip prime pike... you get to WALK

I am so pleased that we have nuPike, who can now carry on, and I really enjoyed Bruce Greenwood's portrayal (and his natty little TMP jumpsuit at the end...LOL)

thereR4lights

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 2643

Report this Jul. 23 2009, 9:59 am

i love nubbie pike

-punch it

MrsStarbuck

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POSTS: 4329

Report this Jul. 23 2009, 10:30 am

Quote (ServalanFan @ July 22 2009, 4:09 pm)
I like the Menagerie very much. Great Spock episode. I thought he did this because he was Vulcan, not because he was half-human though.

Now this statement interests me...what made you think it was a Vulcan action?

MrSpock44

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POSTS: 852

Report this Jul. 23 2009, 10:36 am

I liked this two-parter.  Of course, seeing The Cage first may take something away from it, but this episode still has a special place in my heart for being the only original series two-parter.

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